Waar blijft de bespreking van de Gemini CDJ-20?
(21 reacties. Pagina 1 van 3)Moderator(s): Dré
| TkimaStandaard Lid Uit: Nederland Sinds: 27-11-2001 Laatste: 22-6-2017 Berichten: 126 | 27-11-2001 16:12 |
1 x bewerkt. Laatst door Dré op 27-11-2001 17:40 Waar blijft de uitvoerige bespreking van de gemini CDJ-20 nou ? Ik zit er al best lang op te wachten !!!  | |
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| DréAdministrator Uit: Nederland Sinds: 17-11-2001 Laatste: 31-10-2024 Berichten: 13473 | 27-11-2001 17:39 |
Tkima schreef: Waar blijft de uitvoerige bespreking van de gemini CDJ-20 nou ? Ik zit er al best lang op te wachten !!! <quote> Hello group, I said earlier that I was going to test Gemini's new small tabletop CD-player, the CDJ-20. Well, they arived today. Below is a rough draft (actually a copy of my notepad during testing) so it's NOT formatted and quite probably will be a bit "inane" here and there. Also, the pictures aren't inserted (no binaries in a non binaries newsgroup) but they will be available on my site (including the formatted output of this draft). --------------------------------- First look: Quite nice looking units, especially on the outside. Obvious thing is the pitch slider length, it's 68mm (just like on the Denon 2000 and load of other decks). I myself prefer 100mm faders because they're easier to set. Plugging in: The LCD display has a good visibility (not as nice as a more expensive FL display), even when viewed from an angle. Direct key buttons are NICE (especially for those of us who make compilation discs out of our collection (to save space)). The Open button is fully mechanical. This means you can press open even when the disc is still spinning (-1 point for that). Still, I tried it a dozen times and the CD inside never did anything strange (like flipping outside the box or something like that). Still.... Pitch slider: Instead of giving the slider a lineair behavior (say 2mm per 0.1% pitch movement), the pitch is set at 0.1% increments for the +/-6% range (a range most of us use) and 0.2% increments for the 6-16% range. This system works like a charm (and almost full travel of the slider is used for pitch setting). Pitch bend: There are the standard pitch bend buttons that _finally_ bend in relation to the absolute pitch setting at 4% (so if pitch is at +6, up moves that to 10%, down moves that to 2%). Good thing Gemini for finally listening to us ;-) Pitch jog: The jog can be used for cueing AND for bending. The bending sensitivity is very low (even lower than that of the CDJ-100). Don't get me wrong here, I LIKE that. It takes some 5 minutes of getting used to and after that you can correct ever so gently using the jog by using quite large jog movements (so an "oops I flew over the point" isn't likely to happen). Button layout. Not bad. If the unit was to automatically stop the disc prior to opening the lid, the button placement would have been near perfect. Now you have to press stop (we're quite unused to having a stop button on a CD-player) at the right top corner of the unit and then press open (right bottom side of the unit). Personally I think Gemini needs to figure out a (cost effective) way to make sure the device comes to a full stop prior to opening the lid. Still, as said earlier, if you press open during play, the disc keeps spinning for a while but no strange things happen (since the spindle doesn't retract). Button quality. The pitch bend buttons are of a nice "punch through" type. This means they click before you reach the end of the button's travel. This is a nice feature (also used on the CDJ-500 for the larger buttons). The other buttons strangely enough are NOT of the punch through variety. They feel just as stiff as on Pioneer's CDJ-100. No biggie BUT I myself like punch through buttons because they last longer. Jog: Optical. They've done it the way it's supposed to be. Bearings aren't as fancy as in the Pioneers (three wheels keeping it afloat), camshaft (that thing with the notches) IS. It uses more than enough notches for consisitent jog behavior, especially so when taking the low jog sensitivity into account. Gemini has been paying attention ;-) Laser block protection: There is NO cover over the lens once the lid opens. Most portables don't have it either. IMO, it's not a big issue since the lens is accessible so you can clean it with isopropyl alcohol every now and then (gently of course). Still, don't go poking inside with sharp objects for you might damage the lens (and hey, don't put your dog in the microwave either). Suspension of the unit: Adequate. There is some suspension and it's slightly damped. I've seen better (Pioneer) and worse (Denon). The unit also features ESP (Electronic Shock Protection), settable to either 10 seconds or 40 seconds (at the 40 second setting, the digital output is de-activated). Ability to handle shocks: Once the memory buffer is filled, you can pretty much drop it on the floor and it'll keep working (provided you didn't drop it high enough to physically damage it ;-). If the buffer isn't full yet, the unit goes into mute until the buffer is being filled again (comparable in behavior to other devices with ESP). Good thing is that even though it has ESP, they still used a bit of suspension in the unit (some brands.....). Ability to handle scratched discs: We have a winner!!! I always use a Burosch test CD for this test (D - 70567). This disc is filled with interruptions on the read-out side in a range from 0 - 3 mm (the latter is some seriously severe damage). The disc also has interruptions in the information side (absence of reflection) in the 0-2mm range (this is much harder for the player since it totally loses track when this happens). NEVER ever have I found a DJ CD-player that could handle the entire disc (and believe me, I've tested quite a few). For example, the Pioneer CDJ-500 stops at some 2.2mm on the read-out side and 1.6mm at the information side. The Denon does slightly less (2mm read-out and 1.6 information). These numbers are an average, taken from a few units from different batches. I only have 2 Gemini CDJ-20's in the shop so my statistics are based on these two units (judging by their serial numbers, they are from the same batch). OK, I fed them the disc and guess what. They played EVERY track without ANY disturbance (not even a glitch (most players start to soundglitch well before they lose track). This is PERFECT (I really like to know who made the drive mechanics for this unit). Mechanical noise: They are NOT quiet. They make quite some noise during track advance. No biggie (since we're supposed to turn up the volume) as long as making noise doens't mean excessive wear (time will tell). OK, time to look at the guts of this device.... It's screw driver time. <vervolg hieronder> | |
| -- Pardon my French, I'm Dutch -- | |
| DréAdministrator Uit: Nederland Sinds: 17-11-2001 Laatste: 31-10-2024 Berichten: 13473 | 27-11-2001 17:39 |
| <vervolg...> As you can see from the picture <insert pic here>, the inside is qutie accessible AND servicable (remember that the more servicable a unit is, the lower the service price!). 4 screws and the disconnection of 2 flatcables and one connector is all it takes to seperate the top from the bottom. Inside looks good. PCB's are firmly attached to the bass (a bass BTW which is quite rigid) so PCB damage due to vibration shouldn't occur (under normal circumstances). lethal voltages are kept on a seperate PCB (small one on the left of the pic) which is the preffered way. Distance between this PCB and casing is enough for a Class-2 device (6mm creapance) and just to be sure, they've used a piece of isolation film (more than enough to meet the quite stringent Class-2 qualifications). Because of this, the device doesn't require a grid ground (safety ground) connection meaning less possible earth loop problems. Most of the larger PCB is SMT (Surface Mounted Technology), not visible in the picture (since it's on the bottom of the PCB). Not very interesting either so I won't remove the main PCB. Over to the top where all the buttons AND the drive mechanic are (the latter is not very common practice for tabletop decks BTW). As you can see in the picture <insert picture here>, there is plenty of room to work in. The PCB for the track skip/search/cue and play buttons is held in place with 3 screws. Adequate. The PCB that holds the pitch slider and all the buttons above and below that is also kept in place with 3 screws. Adequate. The small PCB that holds the direct access buttons is kept in place with 2 screws and 2 notches. The PCB that holds the drive electronics for the display is on it's own frame, securely attached to the front of the unit. Well done! All in all there's is little feeling of PCB flexing when you press any of the buttons (something that some other designers totally ignore). What does this mean? It means the unit feels sturdy AND PCB damage due to continuous flexing shouldn't occur under normal circumstances. On to the drive mechanics (the heart of the unit AND the unit most often in need of replacing). Stamping on the mechanics is: KSM213CCM (that's the reference of the entire drive). Quick browse through the database.... It's a commonly used (cost effective) drive mechanics from Sony, using the KSS213C laser bock. OK, the round trip has been made. This is a very commonly used Sony drive (Numark too uses it) and as we can see from the Focus CD test, it works like an absolute CHARM in this unit. Replacement cost of the _entire mechanics_ (inlcuding spindle motor and block drive motor) should be some $25 (excuding labour). Suspension consists of 4 metal springs with a bit of tubing around it for damping. Very accessible drive mechanics, removed it within a matter of minutes. Extra features: - Cue setting. You can set a cue for a song, totally different from the one who's currently playing by using the direct access buttons. Useability of this feature? I don't know. - Digital out. This unit features a digital out that works when you set the anti-skipping buffer to 10 seconds. I'm not sure but I THINK this means they use part of the memory buffer for sample rate conversion. This (if it's true) would mean the unit's digital out is a fixed 44k1 and works regardless of pitch setting. If this is so, it's a nice trick. I'll test it in a day or so (for I'd have to get an analyser to look at the output from the digital out). The digital out BTW uses a BNC plug. This is the CORRECT plug for this connection but unfortunately 99% of all manuf. uses cinch plugs (which are NOT correct plugs for this connection). So if the device at the other end is one with a coaxial input using a cinch connector, you might need a small BNC to cinch adapter (readily available). Prefered method of course is to use a BNC - BNC cable and put the BNC -> Cinch connector at the other end. Doing it the other way around works too of course (for distances up to a few meters). Time to put it back together again and test these babies out. 2 CDJ-20's were connected to my favorite home mixer for the professional DJ (the Magnedine Mag-10, see picture) and the players were given a test spin, using a variety of different CD's (all my prefered club type music, 135 - 140BPM). First a test was done to see how well they read CD-Recordables. They do that flawlessly. Even the troublesome (and old) Maxell Gold/Gold discs played like a charm. CD-RW, I don't know, but from what I know of the drive mechanics (and the chipset they ship with it), it doesn't support CD-RW discs. If you experience otherwise then say so. BTW: Those reports of some CD-RW discs being able to play in most CD players (using a new CD-RW disc type) are all very nice but the people who report this forget one thing. This only works for the first recording you do on the disc. If you erase the disc (full, quick, doesn't matter) and record some new content (using DAO or whatever) then the discs won't play anymore in CD-players that normally don't support CD-RW (in players that do, they play fine of course). IMO that kind of defeats the purpose of a CD-RW ;-) OK, enough quasi technical babble, it's time to cue and play ;-) As mentioned earlier, the cue section takes some getting used to (and I'd seriously advice Gemini to copy the behavior on the cue section from the "big 2" (Denon/Pioneer)). How do you cue? You start by using the jog to find your cue point. After you've found it, you press PLAY (not cue). The unit will start to play AND it'll remember the cue point. If you want to cue again, you press cue. Pressing cue during cue (IF cue is set) results in the unit starting to play for the duration of the push (Pioneer/Denon behavior). Best is to put the player in "single play auto cue" mode (only needed when you turn it on) and push time to display "track remain" (again only needed when you turn it on). There's a nice progress bar (a-la Pioneer) that tells you the relative position inside the song. If you don't set a cue point and press cue during play, it will NOT go back to the beginning of the song (since there's nothing to go to). This definately is totally different from ALL players I've ever used (and quite frankly, I don't like this kind of behavior). You'll have to press track skip backwards to get to the beginning of the song again (or learn to always set the cue point before you play a song (something that is quite common practice if you beatmix BTW)). <vervolg hieronder> | |
| -- Pardon my French, I'm Dutch -- | |
| DréAdministrator Uit: Nederland Sinds: 17-11-2001 Laatste: 31-10-2024 Berichten: 13473 | 27-11-2001 17:39 |
| <vervolg...> Using the cue to "slam". Some of us cue a piece and use that to slam over an already playing song (you know, cue a "yeah" and insert it everywhere you like). The CDJ-20 does this quite well BUT as soon as you want to do it too fast, the processor driving the interface doesn't allow it (to avoid so called "race conditions"). How fast can you go? I'm currently playing Zipp - Sunparade (139BPM) and want to dump some cue over that. I can do that on every beat (meaning 139 times per minute) but if I want to do that on every half beat (278 times per minute), the unit doesn't allow it and some pushes will be lost. In all honesty, the most often used slam is a beat slam and the unit allows for that without hick-ups. Still, those of you with a Pio 100, try it out. You can probably go as high as 400 "slams" per minute (no idea how you English talking guys call this procedure BTW ;-). Time for some mixing. Zip's in the Right deck, Pep 'n' Up just happened to be in the left deck (Hey, I'm not entertaining a floor here ;-). How does the bending work? WONDERFUL. I'm VERY used to mixing on the Pioneers (especially the 500 and 700) and also somewhat used to the 100 but I MUCH prefer the behavoir of the jog on the CDJ-20 over that on ANY Pioneer. Why? Because I can apply bends more subtle because of the low jog sensitivity (I'd really like to know how Jim feels about this one given the fact it offers BOTH types of bending). Cue is consistent, jog behavior is consistent, pitch bend buttons behavior is consistent. After some 5 minutes I'm used to it (exception being the strange cue system) and mixing is just as tight assed as on ANY Pioneer or Denon. The pitch slider worked absolutely well, even though it's only 68mm long. Conclusion time: Gemini has fucked up many times with the implementations of their features (and sometimes even with the basic design). In this case however (the CDJ-20), IMO, they have NOT fucked up. Quite the contrary. The CDJ-20 is an affordable unit with a nice price/performance ratio, a nice interface, an often used and well known drive mechanics, an accessible and serviceable inside, pretty well build (considering it's budget) and pretty well performing. I'd only like to remark that I would SERIOUSLY suggest to Gemini copying the behavior of the cue section from other manuf. for IMO, this will be a VITAL part of the device's acceptance (IMO of course). Much less of a problem (IMO) is the fact that you can press open while the disc is spinning. It didn't give any problems here but it doesn't look nice. Quite probably (in all honesty) it would be a pain to implement this feature cost effectively (since it would require a solenoid to say the least). Will I stock this unit? You betcha. Would I recommend this unit to a friend? Yep. If his/her budget doesn't allow for the Pioneer but he/she did want a tabletop deck, I'd indeed recommend this unit. If you consider it's price it offers a VERY good price/performance ratio. The fact that it uses a readily available (and affordable) drive mechanics is a plus too. Will I place it in a club? NO. It doesn't offer enough protection to the laser block (IMO) in order to survive the average torture in a club (same probably goes for the buttons). Mobile use? If the user is the owner then I see no problem in using the CDJ-20 for mobiles. It handles the occasional shock 'n' bump quite well. Now some might not know my background and might think I'm not used to professional equipment and that because of that I of course will like the Gemini (land of the blind and all that). Rest assured. I'm a BIG gear snob when it comes to performing for an audience. Only the absolute "A" brands will be used by me in a professional situation (Beyer, Carver, Dateq, EAW, Lab Gruppen, SoundCraft etc. etc.). But at home or for a small(ish) mobile, this unit will perform quite well! I give it an 8 out of 10. If they fix the cue section, I'll give it a 9! Reactions welcomed BUT please be sure to apply proper quoting (that is remove redundant ASCII). </quote> Toevoeging: Alle tot nu toe geteste CDJ-20's (onderhand meer dan 20 stuks) vertonen hetzelfe PERFECTE gedrag bij de Focus Test CD! | |
| -- Pardon my French, I'm Dutch -- | |
| HanStandaard Lid Uit: Nederland Sinds: 20-11-2002 Laatste: 19-1-2005 Berichten: 70 | 18-12-2002 15:16 |
en kunnen schrijven  . hehe, menig klein typfoutje. maar ik vind het een fantastische review. die zo'n topapparaat ook zeker verdient. | |
| NiekStandaard Lid Uit: Nederland Sinds: 20-8-2002 Laatste: 10-7-2014 Berichten: 882 | 18-12-2002 20:07 |
| Ik heb niet alles gelezen, maar het ziet er onderbouwd en goed uit, waarbij je figuurlijk alles onder de loep hebt genomen! Zelfs dat waar we zelf niet aan denken of gewoon voor "waar" aannemen -) Besides: complimenten voor je Engels. | |
| GijsStandaard Lid Uit: Nederland Sinds: 19-7-2003 Laatste: 31-8-2008 Berichten: 205 | 20-7-2003 22:14 |
| je zou deze unit niet in een club plaatsen. zou je dat wel doen in een drive-in? | |
| *Doorstrepen wat niet van toepassing is. | |
| VictorVIP Lid Uit: Nederland Sinds: 23-8-2002 Laatste: 7-10-2024 Berichten: 5308 | 20-7-2003 22:54 |
GiJs schreef: je zou deze unit niet in een club plaatsen. zou je dat wel doen in een drive-in?Dré schreef: Mobile use? If the user is the owner then I see no problem in using the CDJ-20 for mobiles. It handles the occasional shock 'n' bump quite well. | |
| Ik ben niet gek, ik ben een helicopter! Een Satel Pogi om precies te zijn! | |
| GijsStandaard Lid Uit: Nederland Sinds: 19-7-2003 Laatste: 31-8-2008 Berichten: 205 | 21-7-2003 12:27 |
| sorry, net overheen gelezen :S | |
| *Doorstrepen wat niet van toepassing is. | |
| DaanjeStandaard Lid Uit: Nederland Sinds: 24-7-2003 Laatste: 6-8-2003 Berichten: 26 | 28-7-2003 23:30 |
| Heeft hij nu wel of geen Loop functie? | |